Express Focus -- INTERVIEW -- by Indian Express

December 06, 2000

The spy who loves Kashmir

He’s revered by many Pakistanis for converting jehad into a weapon against Russians in Afghanistan. Lt Gen (retd) Hamid Gul, former chief of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), is also credited with drawing up the blueprint of insurgency in Kashmir. This General Zia-ul-haq confidante may be removed from the rough-and tumble of contemporary Pakistani politics, but he claims that he still inspires thousands of Pakistanis to join the jehad, this time in Kashmir. AASHA KHOSA spoke to him in his sprawling house in Askari, on the outskirts of Rawalpindi.

Should India and Pakistan keep Kashmir on the backburner and patch up in the larger interests of development of the region?
I agree that undivided India was a prosperous society. Together, we could regain that glory. For instance, friendship between India and Pakistan could result in a short-cut route to Europe. But what comes in the way is Kashmir, and only India can help there.

One feeling in India is that Pakistan won’t stop its jehad even if Kashmir were offered to it on a platter, since it is posited that Pakistan was created for Muslims and India for Hindus.
PAKISTAN has been created for Islam and not for Muslims. An Islamic state is a state where the Islamic order prevails. It does not necessarily mean that We (Pakistan) need to divide India. There are many myths, one of which is that the two-nation theory must be demolished. It’s believed that we (Pakistan) as a nation exist only because of the two nation theory. Thus, if there is fear on the Indian side, there is greater fear in Pakistan that India is out to destroy it.

But isn’t India in a defensive posture? Even during the Kargil war, we refused to go on the offensive and transgress the LOC.
I wish this decision (to go on the offensive) had been taken at that time. Let’s finish this business (Kashmir) once for all. Either we make peace of we fight it out.

A new thinking has started among Kashmiris that an independent Kashmir is a viable solution. Would Pakistan be comfortable with this decision?
INDIA will lose the entire game if an independent Kashmir is allowed to exist. Independent Kashmir means the fragmentation of India, since there are around 15 separatist movements going on there. China will also veto an independent Kashmir, since they would face problems in Sianking, Tibet and Taiwan. Pro-independent people are more dangerous to the interests of both the countries. It is better that we stick to the UN resolution, which is in complete harmony with the sub-continental division.
I know that world powers want Kashmir to be independent. Maybe they don’t want Ladakh, northern areas of Pakistan and even Jammu. Western powers have interests in containing China and a free Kashmir would give them a foothold in the Valley.

What have been Pakistan’s gains and losses in its decade-long support to Kashmiri insurgents?
WE have gained a lot because our offensive continues. This is a psychological and political offensive. The Indian army is fully trapped and is vulnerable. Therefore, Pakistan enjoys relative security.

Your tactics of death by thousand cuts (to the enemy) continues...
YES, this was my strategy in Afghanistan and it’s the same in India. There’s still time for India to escape the situation. In five years, the situation will get far more dangerous.

Isn’t jehad causing problems for Pakistan as well?
BUT what else do we have? You (India) keep bullying a smaller country like Pakistan. By the way, the same jehad was eulogised by Americans at one point in time. I was quite a darling at that time of the world powers. Mujahideens too were darlings at Western airports. But now, we realise that they were being used.

What is Pakistan’s current equation with the US?
THE people of Pakistan have distanced themselves from the US. Indians, though, are experimenting with western powers. But how long will it last? American is far too domineering, and I don’t think India is going to take it as easy as Pakistan did.

Did Pakistan gain at all from its involvement in Afghanistan, apart from a gun culture and social unrest?
WE couldn’t handle the situation. The Americans moved in too quickly, and created a situation where people like me had no role. Now, I’m making attempts to consolidate the fallout of our achievements in Afghanistan on my own.
But we haven’t given up on Afghanistan. We are trying to unite the warring Afghan factions. Morarji Desai, in fact, was a sagacious man. He did not approve of Russia’s invasion of Afghanistan. But subsequent Indian leaders failed to appreciate the situation in which Pakistan found itself. History tells you that any Central Asian power that has crossed the Oxus river has ended up fighting battles in Panipat. Had we not contained the Russians, India would have lost far more.

How many years do you give yourself on Kashmir?
VERY soon, if India does not heed our advice. Give Kashmiris the right of self-determination; if not, let India finish off Pakistan. Because as long as Pakistan exists, the problem of Kashmir will keep burning. No government in Pakistan can afford to give up Kashmir. Therefore, we must talk directly about things which bother both countries in the settlement of Kashmir. Pakistan too should be ready to give self-rule to Kashmir.